Watched: 05/25/2025
Format: Drafthouse
Viewing: Second
Director: Jake Schreier
We had already seen Thunderbolts (2025) in the theater when the movie opened, but Jamie in particular wanted to see it again, and I'm a fun guy, so why not?
I enjoyed it on a second viewing maybe more than I initially liked it. It really is a tight script, and I kind of reveled in the fact that the big set piece at the conclusion of the movie takes place without a shot fired. This is near Doom Patrol territory in how we're approaching super-stuff.
I've seen complaints about the palette of the movie, a gripe which seems to be missing the way movies work, and instead of saying "the aesthetic looks ugly. They did it wrong" failing to ask "why does it look the way it does? We know this was intentional." Because the conclusion there is pretty @#$%ing obvious, and you're so close.
But we know all this. So I want to talk about where we are with Marvel in 2025.
Box office for the movie is not amazing. It's made something like $330 million, which I would happily take, but which is a pretty far cry from billions of dollars Marvel hopes to make with every movie. But...
1) The much anticipated superhero fatigue really has set in. The specialness of what Marvel has been doing has lasted a generation and has become the bar for what a superhero movie should be. Which means we're probably due for a shift in what superhero movies do and how they do it. Or else some new form of action movie will take over and Marvel will keep happening, but on a smaller scale.
2) There's no rush to see a Marvel in the theater if you can watch it at home on Disney+. Even people who fully intend to watch this movie are staying home in droves to not pay theater prices. They will then get on Threads and be mystified that Thunderbolts underperformed at the box office, not drawing the connection that (a) box-office rarely reflects quality of a movie and (b) yeah, if you stay home, you're part of why it didn't make a billion dollars, my friend.
3) It is hip to say Marvel is bad. Part of this comes from people who have created YouTube channels to be mad at Marvel, some folks mad they let women do things other than cook and have babies, but mostly its that toxic Cinema Sins manner of watching movies that people thinks makes them look very smart, indeed. And, yes, of course pointing out "this doesn't add up" is part of watching a movie or reviewing a movie, and it's the Millennials' version of riffing. And, holy shit, is it boring. I'm now even deeply bored of How It Should Have Ended, and feel bad for the people making those cartoons, because now they have to watch every movie with their little formula in mind.
To be clear, neither Cinema Sins or HISHE are movie criticism. Criticism comes from a structural investigation based in a philosophical (read: political) or literary viewpoint, like "what's the movie saying about class?" or "what is it saying about use of power?" Breaking down cinema to components to understand the text is a real and worthy effort - and can be necessary to prove a point. Like "why is there no reaction shot from the character most impacted here? What does that tell us?"
What criticism isn't is acting very clever whilst showing that movies use tropes and shorthand to convey a lot of information in a limited amount of time. Or that sometimes things happen in a way that is lucky for our lead. Like - it's a movie. We all get that shit. It doesn't make the movie bad, per se. Or you a genius for spotting it.
Marvel has become the favorite target for this brand of movie-watching as the biggest target, and I get it. And, okay... but show your work. If you're prepared to say "this movie is bad because it's ugly" - you're required to ponder that very little in movie land appears on screen without a committee designing, building, filming, processing and editing that scene. So... maybe figure out why the thing is the way it is, and discuss that.
There's room for knowing why a movie isn't working, and if you're a grown adult, it's nice to know how to watch movies well enough to sort that out for yourself.
I'm not saying you can't say "I don't understand why they did X, Y or Z", but I am saying, positioning yourself as the world's most clever watcher of movies by saying "nuh-uh, that is a problem" about every detail in movies is just lame nerdery and not as smart as you think it is.
4) No one reads every comic book. I would love to. I used to pick up literally 20-25 comics per month, and that was still a fraction of DC and Marvel's output. But at some point I've consolidated to picking up Superman and Wonder Woman comics monthly, along with a few other things that might catch my fancy. My Marvel reading I now limit to trades and collections, mostly of Cap and Black Panther.
What you'll note is that these are the tried and true characters of two universes, who I know will get effort put into them, and which I am already invested. At age 50, I am not looking to get into New Hero X. That's for you youths.
I think in movie terms, Marvel is fighting the fact they retired characters people loved deeply, and might have continued with. They *could* have recast Captain America - and it's a sign of goodwill that Captain America: Brave New World still made $415 million and was not the world's best movie. But Thunderbolts* is a bunch of characters that are the second-bananas. And while that's the joke! it doesn't mean anyone is in a rush to see it. Anymore than I'm in a rush to pick up an issue of Nightwing. And if you are, I am happy for you.
But after Endgame gave people a huge jumping off point, the immediate follow ups were a reminder that the MCU is a machine intended to generate money for Disney shareholders, and Disney was going to keep going whether we liked it or not.
One can easily imagine the further adventures of minor characters from Lord of the Rings, and Amazon has put a billion dollars into assuming we wanted that. I didn't. I'm good. Frodo taking off with the elves was where I wandered off.
So, it simply isn't what people wanted. And I get the feeling maybe Doomsday will help fix that.
And therefore...
We probably let Marvel fill up too big of a space in our collective mind space, and it was always just a set of movies. What was achieved is astounding, and - I'd argue - continues to be, in its way. I do think they mis-stepped with some of what they've done and not done - I'm completely baffled by a lack of Shang-Chi follow up, for example. But nothing can withstand the million cuts suffered by Marvel as The Youths look to take down the elder gods of their predecessors' entertainment.
I liked Thunderbolts* perfectly well. It filled my need for two hours of entertainment with a good, emotional arc for our leads, and something to say about the real Thunderbolts being the friends we made along the way. At this point, it's hard to say anything holistically about Marvel as they seem to be flailing, trying to find their way back.
I don't know how Marvel will wrangle the outside forces, but I did read that after Fantastic Four is released, there's no new Marvel product to be dropped for over a year. Which feels like we're hitting a place where we're walking away from the "Marvel as Content" policy that helped lead to our current state, and retooling for the future. We'll see what that looks like. If nothing else, it cuts off oxygen to the fire that is the cottage industry of shitting on their product. I mean, what will HISHE even do without Marvel movies for almost 18 months?
But Marvel succeeded beyond anyone's wildest notions, and achieved things narratively that seemed like a pipedream to me as a kid. But once everyone is looking, everyone is also commenting. And that has its own implications in this age of social media, YouTube clicks and the power of negativity.
But I guess, before complaining, try actually watching a movie. And then see if you can tolerate not watching HISHE and CinemaSins.
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